New War System

[Daklore]

No, don't be sorry at all - glad you posted your thoughts on it.  If you see others on the MUD, haul them over to this post too.  It looks like players are in favor of something new - so now we need feedback on what they'd like to see, just like you gave.  Thanks!

Everyone but Enthor, he just wants to female dog about everything. Then say no one is doing it right.

[Fric]

I find the idea great. But I have to agree that giving all the power to a king is wrong. The kings in the old days had generals and nobles doing everything while they sat lavishly in their kingdom. However, I think it should be IMM regulated. If we have a kingdom that isn't used much...I.E. Lapis, no offence Dak, it wouldn't be right for say Murkwood and Klevenon both attacking said kingdom. I think before said kingdom can declare war upon another kingdom it needs to go through a designated IMM, with reasons for the attack. It should be a good reason, not because 2 toons had a disagreement on an OOC level. An example of a good reason, not to pick on Dak, but if Dak goes into a kingdom and spreads a plague like he has in the past, that would be grounds to attack. Or have the King or Queen use the banishment on said person as not to start a war. Unless it was thought out by the King or Queen to do so. And those that live in Tolin, like me, can be used as spies or mercenary work for the highest bidder. And those that live in Tolin aren't loyal to anyone so now they can have a role into the new war system if and when it's implemented.
Those with multiple toons should be honorable...I said Should Be...and not use knowledge from their alts to alter the outcome of the war. That becomes part of the honor system. There are many things that can go wrong in this, but I think the over all good out weighs the bad...

[Daklore]

blah blah blah...but if Dak goes into a kingdom and spreads a plague like he has in the past, that would be grounds to attack... blah blah blah

Bolded is the point I wanna make, blah blah blah is, well all good points I agree. But bolded: Good luck proving it was Daklore. I often do so under changeform or deception. You guys only know it's me on an OOC level, because, well, who else would do it?

Remember, plagues and disease outbreaks were normal in medieval times in the real world. It's not implausible to realize they should be in KotL as well. ... They just need a player to actually initiate them.

Also Klevnone is the only kingdom that can support the plague. This should be fixed by giving every other kingdom mobile more HP. And larger numbers so the plague can spread effectively.

Getting back onto rail, though, Fric does raise some good points about controlling the war flow some. Especially against Lapis because apparently Armengar is still doing better than we are despite being -open-. Like Enthor has been complaining about, we need reasons to go to war, other than lulz. Unfortunately, all we have right now for reasons to go to war -is- lulz. So we either try and implement a fun way to do border skirmishes and imitate a world that is actually at conflict. Or remove the ability altogether and pretend we're in a Star Trek utopia with Klevnone as the Klingons; Murkwood, Mesilena and Calararian the Federation; Tozain the Bajorans; Armengar the Romulans; and Lapis the Borg. Or the Dominion, that works too.

[Fric]

Well Dak, of course we know it was you OOC, but that wasn't the point. It also has to do with other toons not using information gathered from OOC or other characters is what I was getting at. However, one problem we have is trying to get the player base back to where there are 20 or more on at a time. People keep putting mud votes, but how many of us true players actually use them? I know I am not the most active player but I try to get in here and do things. I think what happens to the new ones that are coming that aren't all that aware of the web sites that have been made and what they entail. Maybe if an IMM can take the web site and in the tutorial at creation add one of them saying you can find out more information about maps, items, and custom creation at said page?

[Daklore]

You're de-railing the thread! >P But all good points, definately. Also the newbie grounds kinda screws with some people considering some of the mprogs don't quite work right ... which can leave a newbie stuck.

Also some of them complain about dieing in newbie land.

Back to war system:

Uh ... back to the war system! >P

[Chalgyr]

The newbies liiiiiiie!  all of the progs work (and if not, I need to know which ones so we can modify).  Also, I don't know - can we/do we want to prevent newb death in the grounds?


*** damnit, I let Dak derail me, back to war stuff... sounds like people are interested so that's prolly the first step.

[Daklore]

When it comes to the war system, I see three options for actually -doing- war. This doesn't count the whole cause for war that Enthor female dog's about.

1) We keep the system as is and tweak it to be more, capable of actually engaging fighting. This is of course a problem because of the whole pk level range, and the difference between a level 260 Daklore and a level 50 anyone without full resists. This seems more like the model that would drive newbies off or make them go serene, and the high level players will be limited to being able to fight no one, or only one person. This does not seem ideal.

2) We incorporate text fighters to wage war on behalf of kingdoms with some sort of goal for victory in mind so that it's not just build more lemmings and send them to their doom.

3) We go with my long and complicated original idea of sorts where we have it more resembling that of a Strategy Game, examples of which can be found on the interwebs in a sense, where you have resources, buildings, etc etc etc.

So, pick one and tinker it, already! >P

[Fric]

I like the idea of making mobs do the work and having people in the kingdom do the direction and time to execute and so forth. How hard would it be to actually instill that and how much time would it take? I know when I had a toon as king he really didn't have much he could do with his power. Chal, what if we go into builder, get a few of us in there and see how it would play out. That could be the start. I know I have a toon in builder, Thaxn, Nealah, Sye, and Dak...if not Dak, then put him in there. We could try it there and work out the kinks. Hopefully with us all pulled together we could have a test run and communicate on how it works. PVP here is pretty much dead. You have people that are out of reach in the range and those that are in range are usually friends and don't want to fight each other. So the mobile idea is great.
I can create a new character and look for the what is wrong and bug it. Dak, it would be great if you gave me the ideas of what you think is wrong with it and see if I can test it to see if it is bad. As for dying in the newbie land, it sucks and makes you not want to really do more. That's why there are people who will create and recreate just so they don't have any deaths. Once they get farther into the game and die then it's ok because they have invested more time and will learn that way.
Now about getting new players and keeping them, will be the hard part. I have been talking to some of my friends and I have one or two interested. For some reason, I find that the quest timer is killer. I feel it's to long and I agree that the cost of customs are set right. But time vs custom make the ratio isn't all that great. Unless you have pulsing, bright, and legendarys it feels like it takes forever to make a custom. So how about making mini quests for like 15 tokens max or something every 3 ticks so we have something to do other than sit and wait? Idea for that is give a healer the ability to work out a quest for a certain herb that is a designated place, like normal quests have the quill, staff, and chest, make it herb of healing, leaf of light, and pill of replacement. A chance to do more questing to help get the tokens needed to make customs. I know I can't stand it when I have to wait 9/10 ticks for a quest because I am 5 short on tokens.

Just some added ideas for making the game a little more fast paced. Most people go to W.o.W or Guild Wars because it's faster paced.
I am ready for the bullets...

[Daklore]

Like I said about the current war system in my previous post, Fric, the problem with the existing war system is there's absolutely no way to really progress the "win" bar, nor is there any actual solution. It's just peekay until one side gets sick of it (and in the cast of Klevnone-Armengar, there's no one to even peekay, let alone declare peace/surrender). This needs to change for a war system to be both fun and useful.

Of course, there's also the reservations of the system I suggested that would more accurately reflect a Turn Based Strategy 4X game or something, simply because it would turn the game into a strat game where you have to micromanage everything (I don't think it needs to be that complicated, really). Which of course, it does need ideas and work to really be something worth instating.

And there's always, just get rid of the war system altogether, as it's not worth it. Which, you know, at this point... no one would miss it.

[Fric]

I agree that there is no way to progress the war system. I do like the idea of making it more strategy. That's why if the IMM's get  a chance to actually implement it, I threw some names out that could test it. But then again doing away with the war system takes away the reason to have different kingdoms.

I think we should change the war system to the the strategy way. The silver that is sitting in the kingdoms will get used. And we all know there is a way to replenish the silver. But what would we need to establish in this new war system?

 1. Payment of the guards/warriors/priest/mages of the kingdom
 2. Who controls the troops
 3. Lenght of time to execute a manunever
 4. Do we take in the kingdom bonuses for troops, I.E. Klevnone gets bonus to 2 handed weapons
 5. Can a PC attack the NPC
 6. How does the war affect the PC
 7. Which kingdoms can not enter a war
 8. Do PC need to get IMM apporval for a war
 9. If entering a war in with a kingdom affects everyones faction if they are warring with another kingdom
10. How do we let lower level PC get involved in a war

These are some questions I feel that need to be answered. And if there are more please add them. I would rather have the war system re-vamped instead of completly taken out.

[sye]

Okay,   I wrote a note rewarding people 100 tokens to post an idea here.   We could do a standard on a premium thread that affects everyone, with such incentives, either way doesnt bother me, id like to see this idea go further if Chally/Thalia, and others are serious about it.

Okay, some more good ideas and questions have been brought up.   So I guess ill just throw some responses on why I think some things shouldn't be affected by the war system.  and offer some other ideas too.

-- alts --  This system shouldn't give each individual player THAAAAT much leverage.  For many reasons, one being that some people have a ton of alts,  and no offense, but imms could influence wars greatly this way (not saying they shouldnt be able too.. just saying theyd have a def unfair advantage since they could have like 10 ppl on at once if they really wanted)
Then you have the problem of people who try to get away with proxy, or all that stupid crap. 

-- Fighting/ Engineering/ Agriculture/ Defense/ Standing Army/ Technology -- and possibly rewards :

I honestly think this should be more than just fighting, I think it shouldnt stress the system out or cause lag, so the number should just be seen in like a 'score' sheet that people could pull up.. like.. 'warsheet' or something..  And you could see how each kingdom ranks in each area.. or better yet.. in like most video games only have this information avail at a tavern, they have to go into the tavern and type it or something..   It should be point based.. and it should have time / use somehow..  So you can only pick... Army.. or Engineering.. Or Defense.. etc..  so you can't just stack them all, but a more active kingdom could have a slllight advantage.

------------- The most important thing I fear people will fear is, how much advantage does the kingdom get when this goes through?  What bonuses, what rewards, how valuable, how to keep it balanced, how to let a more active kingdom do get a slight bonus, but how to not hurt an inactive kingdom.. since youll eventually want people to play in that kingdom.. if this gets too awesome and the inactive kingdom doesnt participate noone will want to go there..      But, What can we do?  Maybe revamp the quest items people dont use much, and make some kind of point system?  Or offer token rewards.. and have it 'be like a mini quest' thats ongoing, so people can earn more tokens while questing if they participate?  How difficult do you make it.. do you have to go run around and gather supplies?  Do you have to go and fight people in another kingdom, like guards etc?  How does faction play a role in this?  How does grouping with people from a kingdom youre at war with? How will this work for kingdoms who dont like to war but want to be able to participate?  What about Bloodsworn, Serene, Level differences, all that?  How do you decide what the goal will be, or how much of it?   What are the incentives?  How much will it help the char, or the kingdom?  How will it affect festivals?  Will you get rewards like Double exp for a kingdom for 10 mins?  Or the whole mud?  Can this help you attain customs, or exp or gold?  Could you gain legendaries?  Could you gain items that let you summon pets?

This is a lot of 'what about this' or that.   This is probably not so cut and dry as it seems.   How do you make a system that most of us would like, but it wouldnt bother people who dont care to use it.


Keep in mind here people, we do have a war system, and it sucks.  Noone participates in it.. its' not even fun..  this would be an idea to revamp it and make a war system that you could pvp in, or not.. and still participate in.   Cause you shouldn't have to go kill people to participate in a war..   They could even just streamline it to the point where this only affects 'war goals' and then the winner can eventually be declaired.. to prevent what has happened to Klevenone and Armengar..

So at the very very least.. it should be limited to replace the war system and only work in time of war..  so we can atleast have a victor.. and goals, and a way for serene people to participate in.. and people who just want to quest.. or away to make the level difference not be so supreme in deciding what goes on.  But on the other hand, if you have 10 players level 200 in a kingdom, they should be able to have some advantage over 10 players that are level 50.. But, if there was a kingdom with 20 level 100  players they should have an advantage over 10 level 200 people.   

Just as long as it didnt put stress on the system, and didnt actually have physical mobs.. and only had calculations, it would be sublime.  This is a golden idea, the only problem is deciding how far to go with it, and how to make it smooth.  And balanced / fair for all.  Im in for helping with any ideas to bring up to make this happen. 
-Sye out!

[Lex]

Hello, Hello!!   Alright my turn i guess,  I like the idea of adding new elements to KoTL.
the normal xp/quest grind gets old, i get it.. but some of the ideas posted previously worry me that
this new war system would take over the game.. Immies have never let us down before so i'm sure they'll make it work good with our current setup. I'm not really sure what i'm trying to say.. i'm still a little sleepy lol, but main point is i love KoTL i would hate for it to change.. but then again everything changes and adding things here and there could help us get some of our old players back and maybe some new ones!! well there's my peace

[Elendil]

Hmmmm.........well, here is one idea that I have been thinking over ever since all the talk about revamping the war system started.  The idea I have got is that if a sovereign wishs to delcare war, that it would not be a unilateral occurrance.  if he/she wishs to declare war, it must be cleared by not only the Privy council (Chief advisor, Chief Justice, Champion, mayor, et al) but by the Royal Court (barons and above).  It may be an idea not in keeping with the timeline set down by the game, but it is one way to reign in those more....bellicose and belligerant players.  If 2/3 majority vote for it, then a formal declaration of war will happen.  If it is doable, then cool

[Fric]

I agree with Elendil on the vote. Lex, I agree the game is fine, but the war system does need a change. Sye, you are long winded and so much to take in but I will give it a try.

Dak had the idea with making it more strategy. Mining for resources, training guards, and so forth. It should be mobile vs mobile. We could do the whole who is in charge bonus. Like if you are level 200 king you get x bonus. If you are 215 x bonus + and so forth. Every 15 levels the leader is. And then with say who you have as your Sargent at Arms and his bonus for training, the person who is in control of item use gives mages/priest more of a bonus in the magic area and so forth. But it all being mobiles getting the bonus. And being in a warrior kingdom like Klevenone or Armengar you get more bonus for warriors, Cal would get mages and priest, Mes uhh...well you get the picture. And you can send your mining party into someone else's resources and if they catch it they can send their guards and fight and so forth. It will be like real world wars. Kings and Queens can direct the over all order, Section leaders can run the building and using the armies or agritculturalist.

[sye]

Hmmmm, I think there are a lot of possibilities, prolly going to be a lot of work for someone to work out.  But I like that its beeing looked into.  I can't wait to see what happens.