KOTL Forums

Title: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: Chalgyr on 08/17/07, 18:34

So, over the years, we've done quite a few new things - and we're working on a few combat related things.  However, once in awhile in the past, we've heard people comment that our combat is really quite stock and boring, just heaping skills and weapon flags onto automatic spam.

Now, all of our players here are used to this.  You're relatively fine with it I assume.  Many of you are quite content just cruise-controlling it through quests and combat, and that's cool.

However, the idea has come up a time or five to have a manual input combat system.  If you don't type anything, you stand there and get beaten on.  However, if you input types of attacks and spells, they all take place in sort of a turn-based sequence of events.  The potential to slow down combat is quite a bit greater.  A rough example of what I mean is below:

|Round	|What Player sees	|What Goblin Sees
|-----	|----------------------------------------	|--------------------------------------
|1	|> engage goblin ['Wait: 4, Balance: 100]	|Player approches you. [Wait: 0, Balance 100]
|2	|Goblin backs away from you. [Wait: 3, Balance 99]	|> disengage player You back away from Player [Wait: 10, Balance 95]
|3	|	|
|4	|> engage goblin You still have 1 round to wait. [Wait: 1, Balance: 99]	|
|5	|	|
|6	|> engage goblin ['Wait: 4, Balance: 97]	|
|7	|	|
|8	|	|
|9	|	|
|10	|You are at pole range. [Wait: 0, Balance 96]	|Player is at pole range with you. [Wait: 2, Balance 96]
|11	|> slice goblin You are not within range for a sword attack. [Wait: 0, Balance 96]	|Player swung his sword at you, but was too far away. [Wait: 1, Balance 96]
|12	|> engage goblin You continue to approach the goblin. ['Wait: 4, Balance 92]	|Player continues to approach you [Wait: 0, Balance 96]
|13	|Goblin tried to back away but you are still closing. [Wait: 3, Balance 91]	|> disengage player You try to disengage but fail. [Wait: 10, Balance 85]
|14	|	|
|15	|	|
|16	|You are at melee range. [Wait: 0, Balance 96]	|Player is a melee range with you. [Wait: 7, Balance 87]
|17	|> Slice goblin You hit the goblin.  He takes some damage. [Wait: 4, Balance: 80]	|Player slices you.  That hurt! [Wait: 6, Balance 70]
|18	|	|
|19	|	|
|20	|	|
|21	|	|
|22	|> parry goblin You move into parry position and your balance improves. [Wait 9, Balance 95]	|Player moves into parry position. [Wait: 1, Balance 75]
|23	|Goblin charges you, which knocks you back a bit, but you keep your sure footing. [Wait 8, Balance 85]	|> charge player You charge the player and knock him back a bit, but he stays on his feet. [Wait: 10, Balance 45]
|24	|	|
|25	|	|
|26	|	|
|27	|	|
|28	|	|
|29	|	|
|30	|	|
|31	|	|
|32	|> Charge goblin You charge the goblin and knock him down. [Wait: 10, Balance 75]	|Player charges you and you fall to the ground. [Wait: 1, Balance 20]
|33	|	|
|34	|Goblin is trying to stand up. [Wait: 8, Balance 96]	|> stand You try to stand, but you are carrying too much to do it quickly. [Wait: 45, Balance 20]
|35	|	|
|36	|	|
|37	|	|
|38	|	|
|39	|	|
|40	|	|
|41	|	|
|42	|	|
|43	|> stab goblin You score a direct hit to the goblin's chest.  Goblin is dead. [Wait: 4, Balance: 80]	|Argh! Player scored a direct hit to your chest.  You are dead.

Anyways, this is the basic idea.  Is this something you would be interested in or not?  Let's discuss the notion here, and we'll eventually put it to a poll on the MUd and see what overall opinion might be.

Title: Re: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: Leilani on 08/17/07, 19:15

This looks quite similar to the combat system in LambdaMoo, and I really like that system. The only thing I have issue with is the engage and disengage bit, a similar thing was implemented for a bit on the moo, but wound up being discarded due to being a little too complex.
The way it works there is that you come across something you want to kill and you type ATTACK <whatever>, the first round of combat goes off, and then you can choose to HIT <whatever> with your weapon, or CAST <whatever>, you can even KICK, SLAP, or PUNCH <whatever> This progresses until someone is dead or someone successfully flees.
In order to avoid death by lag, there is still a max number of actions each combatant can perform per round, so if no one types anything, combat will hang at that point.
Honestly, after typing all this out, I'm not certain that this combat system would be so great here. It works great in the moo, and they have a really fascinating magic system in place too, but both may be a little too involved for people who just want to sit and quest or do the hack, slash, repeat thing.

Title: Re: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: Chalgyr on 08/17/07, 19:22

Good feedback - this sounds similiar to something I once played with as well, actually.  I enjoyed it quite a bit, but whether it fits here or not - that remains to be seen.

Keep in mind, for those reading this - no code has been implimented.  What you have seen is a rough representation of a possible system that could look totally different if that's the desire of the players.  Or, if therre's no interest in this, it won't happen at all.  this is to facilitate some discussion, and then we can walk away from this either saying: great, let's try this because it could be a great new element for KotL - or we could say: eh, not a good fit.  People who come here and say the combat is stock be damned, it's what suits us best.

:)

Title: Re: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: Daklore on 08/17/07, 22:03

I'll admit, it poses some interesting possibilities... but I don't really think it's for KotL, especially with us older players that are used to it as it is now. Granted, I'm probably the only one who will say that >P This is the sort of system you'd put into a new mud as you're making it, and be able to build the combat related function, such as custom stats and what not, around it. As it is, with this speed, it'll take even longer for normal combat to occur. Granted, this -may- provide a balance between spell casters and melee users, which is sorely needed, due to the fact that you need a mage to hit something, say, 50 levels over you... or 75... like the GMA for instance? >P

But meh, whatever. No one cares what I think anyway.

Short story: Nifty idea, but better suited for a new mud that hasn't had any players to get settled into a comfy niche.

Title: Re: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: SeanBoggz on 08/18/07, 00:33

I totally agree with Daklore I think if you guys due ever start making Ashes (or whatever the other mud was gonna be called) you should use this combat system but yea... totally agree with Daklore on this one.

Title: Re: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: thaxn on 08/18/07, 08:38

I feel like this would make combat take an inordinately long time.  While it would probably be just fine for a while, causing slower leveling which may mean more questing and more rp since leveling will be much more of a chore...I can see it becoming unbearable at lv 195 when xp requirements jump.
While an adjustment to combat might benefit the community as a whole, I think this is much more than an adjustment and, as Daklore said, might be better suited to a completely new mud.

Title: Re: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: Chalgyr on 08/18/07, 10:37

Changes could be made to xp expectations and mobs stats if needed, but that could take an incredibly long time and would detract from other projects as well, and we do have several in the cooker at the moment.  As an aside, I don't see Ashes ever getting made, at least not within the next 3-5 years, so 'saving stuff for Ashes' is not a viable option.  We do have the port, just not the coding and building resources to support it at this point. :)  But I do seem to be noticing a theme - and it's one we wondered about ourselves: cool idea, but maybe a bad fit for what we already have in place on KotL.

Still, more feedback is welcome, but we have noticed the trend in answers on here and on OOC so far. :)

Title: Re: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: Zylvyn on 08/18/07, 17:42

Uh.  hehe.  I'm glad I got Tsythor to 200 already.

c 'meteor shower'
Meteor shower lands, 47 turns later.  (That's how long it takes meteors to land, we'll say).  Tsythor is linkdead by this point.

Title: Re: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: azzan on 08/20/07, 09:21

I'd have to say i agree with a some of the others. A great concept for a new game - but something i wouldnt like to see put into KotL - i've come to really enjoy the way the combat is setup right now.

Title: Re: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: Lx6 on 08/22/07, 03:41

::burrows into her comfortable home:: Noooooooo change is bad!

it's a nice idea but I'm reading all that and I'm REALLY confused. the draw to this game is that it's easy to get into plus people who are already here like staying.

Title: Re: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: Chalgyr on 08/22/07, 10:18

I think it's safe to say I won't even put this to a poll vote on the MUD since no one seems terribly fond of it.  We do still plan to impliment some other mild changes to combat, such as the ranged/xyz related stuff, but nothing so severe as what was listed in this proposal.  But hey, when someone comes on the MUD and whines that we've done nothing to combat over the years, we can at least say we gave it some consideration but that the playerbase wanted things left as-is.  Nothing wrong with that at all. :)

Title: Re: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: Thalia on 08/22/07, 14:09

Yep, nothing wrong with saying no to the idea at all.  That's why we tossed it out for ya'll to respond to.   This kind of manual combat system was the first system I ever used on a mud, so it's perfectly normal to me (and yes, I have spent 15 *real* minutes killing a single opponent before), but I know it's a huge change for people used to auto-combat.  Soo.. I could live with it, but I can happily live with out it.

;)

Title: Re: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: Chalgyr on 08/22/07, 15:30

and what Thal prolly wanted to say and didn't is...


... less work for us. :P

Title: Re: Proposed Change to Combat
Post by: Daklore on 08/22/07, 18:26

Until I start popping out insanely good and liked ideas for some unknown reason.... whatsoever! ... *rambles*