Jeonjaeng: Going Offline

[Thalia]

I'm reposting the messages from the note boards because the whole thread was getting too long for the forum and this is a much better place to have long note discussions.

I'm also concerned that some people will accuse the staff of deleting negative messages... so here they are preserved for much longer than the note board.

[Thalia]

[ 65] Jeonjaeng: Going Offline
Wed Apr  3 10:40:27 2013  Status: Normal
To: all
I've been playing this game for over 10 years now.  I've had an army of
characters and I have made several friends along the way.  Since day one I
have loved the design and effort that the staff has put into this place.  It
was amazing to see all the well thought out systems and countless ways to
customize your character.  The players loved it and flocked here by the
dozens.  All kinds of players came and stayed and played.  The RP was great
everyone had their own storylines and the higher up the food chain you were
the more people wanted to be a part of your RP and would go out of their way
to RP with you and for your cause.  When I think of KOTL that is what I
think of.  I think of Armengar being at the height of power and their
players hunting down the undead players and vice versa.  I think of
countless PVP battles and skirmishes over IC issues.  That's my wonderful
vision of KOTL.  This place where everyone can go to relax and escape for a
second.  To tell the truth those memories are what bring me back here so
often.  I keep telling myself just to log in and check the notes that maybe
something new has come and changed the current state of the mud.  Sadly
everytime I log I see nothing has changed.  I've tried changing it myself
and even tried to get other on board yet nothing has been done.  That being
said I'm done here.  I'm sure I'll continue to log and check to see if
anything is changing but as far as investing my time and effort to build a
character...  I'm done.  There is no point in my hacking and slashing for
hours upon hours for months upon months only to hit level 275 and realize
I've wasted my time.  The RP will still be broken and the system code will
still be amazing. 

To the players: I'll miss you.

To the Imms: You can build and build this place but until you open it up more
for RP, things will just stay the same. We come for system your create but
we stay for the RP you helped us to create.  Allow your players to influence
the decisions you make but the RP they generate. People fought to save
certain Gods and you ignored them. They fought for a cure for Armengar
and you ignored them. People have left over both and people will continue
to leave until you realize that what they want matters more than what you want.
You built this for the players so listen to the forums you just filled. If you want
someting a different way to RP with them until they change their views.

I'm done.
Sean Boggs
Achroma, Deku, Fenrir, Finde, Fonce, Jeonjang, Shaddow, Zile

[Thalia]

[ 66] Thalia: reply:  Going Offline
Wed Apr  3 20:15:30 2013  Status: Normal
To: all

Jeonjaeng

I'm sorry to see you go, but hopeful you'll be back someday. 

I'm also sorry you haven't liked the changes to religions and kingdoms we
felt were necessary to make.  I respect your right to disagree, but I hope
you'll also respect our right to make changes we feel were necessary. 

My perspective on the matter is that after the last pwipe, we didn't have
enough players to sustain and support 25 gods and 7 kingdoms.  At just a
highest level, that required 32 seperate people to be active as supreme and
rulers.  Adding in Cardinals (another 25) and kingdom group leaders (another
28), that gave 85 leadership positions.  Filling those positions involved
some weird permutations where the same player was running leadership
characters in multiple kingdoms and religions, which blunted or escalted
conflicts based on OOC relationships. 

The decrease to number of religions and kingdoms was intended to bring the
number of leadership roles down to a level that could more easily be
sustained by the player population. 

Armengar, with it's anti-magic character, has always been flagged as
difficult for new players to start and has certainly been more difficult
than other kingdoms to maintain any semblence of a stable or building
population.  Closing it was intended to shift more activity to kingdoms that
had more activity and stable populations. 

Is the game worse off because it now has 5 gods and 4 kingdoms instead of
25 gods and 7 kingdoms?  Did decreasing the numbers "kill" RP? 

I understand that players will be irritated/angered/upset/irrate over the
changes -- especially if it didn't coincide with their own hopes for their
characters.  But, *I* think (yes, I freely acknowledge that I could be
wrong), that we are closer to having a sustainable number of leaders. 

But...  Responding to change -- desired and undesired, expected and
unexpected -- is also an opportunity to roleplay. 

My personal opinion is that the only thing that truely kills roleplay is the
decision not to play. 

I understand from Chalgyr that you did give him some feedback on the
questions he was posing about games in general and this game in particular.
Hopefully as we continue tinkering with the game based on everyone's
feedback, you'll hear something that sparks your interest in coming back. 

Thank you for sharing your time and thoughts with us,
Thalia

[Thalia]

[ 67] Sye: Reply: reply:  Going Offline
Wed Apr  3 20:55:25 2013  Status: Normal
To: Thalia all
Originally sent by: Thalia
Originally sent to: all
Sent on Wed Apr  3 20:15:30 2013

Jeon,
I just wanted to add, you are fun to play with, and whatever you do..  Do not delete, just take a break and check back with us every few weeks or whatnot when you facebook etc.

I must admit, some things have happened here recently to even make my fun time here not so fun, but I dont' let others rule me,  other players who may or may not like my ideas or opinions, instead I just take a break.  Log in to see what is going on, and wait until I feel that urge to build my char(s) up some more.

[Please type (C)ontinue, (R)efresh, (B)ack, (H)elp, (Q)uit, or RETURN]:

Sye <outgame>: 'or if kids were watching'
[Please type (C)ontinue, (R)efresh, (B)ack, (H)elp, (Q)uit, or RETURN]:


The greatest thing about this place it is always changing, population, mechanics, etc.   It may not happen overnight but it happens look back over the last 10 years.   

It looks like they are planning some big changes in the future, hope you give the staff the time to make any or much needed changes that need to be made.  I have always found that you would be impressed at how much things could change overnight, via leadership, vai code, questing, levels etc.

Hope to see you around again in the future, and take care of yourself.

-Sye/Rob

[Thalia]

[ 68] Jeonjaeng: Reply: reply:  Going Offline
Thu Apr  4 07:21:42 2013 Status: Normal
To: Thalia all
Originally sent by: Thalia
Originally sent to: all
Sent on Wed Apr  3 20:15:30 2013

Thalia I never questioned the decisions the staff has made.
Only the way they carried it out. People were non
stop rp'ing about the God Slayings and we had NO effect
on any of the storyline. You guys simply ignored it and
continued on with your own agenda rather than trying to
interact with your pbase. You can't say that you guys
don't want to have an impact on RP because that change was
massive (and needed). All I'm saying is you guys as imms
are leaders here. Without your leadership from time
to time the rp will wither and die. RP with you pbase
allow them chances to interact with the ongoing changes
even if the changes happen at least they had a chance to
RP it out. Then maybe they can move on and accept
your decisions.

[Thalia]

[ 69] Chalgyr: Reply: Reply: reply:  Going Offline
Thu Apr  4 08:41:47 2013 Status: Normal
To: Jeonjaeng Thalia all
Originally sent by: Jeonjaeng
Originally sent to: Thalia all
Sent on Thu Apr  4 07:21:42 2013

I really wasn't going to reply to this. But I feel like you've missed
the point of Thalia's response, and my several responses you and I have had
of late. I really didn't want to sit here and debate things out in the
open, but maybe we should? If others have input, it's more than welcome.

You have had several ideas of late Jeon, and that's great. The way you
went about this long note and the tone of it though, came across to me (and
a few others who have talked to me since) like someone who picked up their
ball and went home because they did not get what they want.

I don't really see the 'job' of the staff as something where we need to
dictate story lines to players. You said that there was lots of RP around
the idea of the gods being reduced - and there was. We put a set of events
into action and people responded. They did not necessarily get their desired
outcome, but you are interacting in a world that we created. Just because
you might not want the Titanic to sink at the end of the movie, doesn't mean
it's suddenly going to spring up and float again. There were maybe two or
three active people in Armengar. Those people didn't get a chance to be
made rulers and got upset. As Thalia mentioned, we brought down the number
of options for kingdoms and religions for administrative reasons and gave
a storyline to them. We were spread too thin - and an argument could be
made that the kingdoms are religions are still spread too thin. That is
one of the drawbacks to a player-managed system. It requires players. And
not just players to run the sect, but without people to fill in the other
roles, it all rings very hollow.

What we made was a decision for the health of the game. It may be wrong, it
may be right, but say you had gotten your way - which included:

- You becoming king of Armengar
- removal of the 'requiprements' for ranking up

To what end if there's only 2 or 3 people actively playing in there? It doesn't
add much to the game, and those few active people are then not participating
with other kingdoms.

Armenger's a large kingdom. In our long-term storylines it has been slated
for 'destruction' for a long time - we as imms first brought that up as a
storyline for Scattered Ashes over 7 years ago. Does that mean we can't be
flexible and make adjustments? Of course not. But there was no single
compelling reason from my standpoint to change direction and throw out the
work we had done on making a large, almost completely unused space of a
city and use it toward something else. Long-term goals include adding areas
to it and quests via talkscript. It might take time, but that is the hope.

We brought over some new race and code changes with this.

I'm sorry you don't agree with that change. I'm sorry you didn't agree with
which religions got the axe. Again, if we had gone and totally adjusted the
deities based on a few people here and there who wanted a specific deity to
stick around, we'd have wound up with around 12 remaining religions and not
enough people in them.

You say you want the staff to be more involved, but when we present a change
and a storyline, you essentially threw a fit because you didn't like the
direction it went in. That's fine, that's your choice. I can't MAKE someone
play here or want to spend their time here. People come and people go, players
and staff alike. I have spent a good deal of time lately trying to figure out
ways to improve the game lately. I might be wrong, but I don't think keeping
Armengar as a player-run city was going to be a compelling reason that gets
us a bunch of new players. It's been one for over twelve years now and has
almost always had the least number of people in it. I'm sorry you don't
like this decision, but there is absolutely no way to make everyone happy
all of the time.

I just feel the need to once more hammer home the point that this was
a decision about a gameplay mechanic, and we put a story around it for people
to interact with. That is the job of the staff. Yes, players are needed
to make the game flourish, but there are decisions the staff have to make
at times as well that we believe is in the best interest of the gaem's health.

[Thalia]

[ 70] Jeonjaeng: Reply: Reply: Reply: reply:  Going Offline
Thu Apr  4 10:01:33 2013 Status: Normal
To: Chalgyr Jeonjaeng Thalia all
Originally sent by: Chalgyr
Originally sent to: Jeonjaeng Thalia all
Sent on Thu Apr  4 08:41:47 2013


I feel like you have both missed my point.
Your decisions as IMMs is just fine. I even agree with
shrinking the religions and don't care much about Armengar tanking.
But I continue to think it's crappy that you don't bother
to take a few seconds to rp with your pbase over major changes.
I don't care much about your decisions it's the way they
were carried out. Again my focus is on the RP aspect
of the mud. I get bored or hack and slashing and questing
I'm leaving because of the lack of RP and that's what I
said straight from the start of this. So let's take your
character attacks out of this. It's not about being a leader
or losing a religion it's about getting tired of an amazing
system with no RP. Again the code and mechanics of the mud
are unmatched in my opinion but the RP is broken. I've
tried several times to fix it and even recruited new players
to help build up the RP and it's had no effect and for that
reason I'm bored and done for now.
So yes I'm taking my ball and going home until things begin
to change in that reguard.

[Thalia]

[ 71] Chalgyr: Reply: Reply: Reply: Reply: reply:  Going Offline
Thu Apr  4 10:21:23 2013 Status: Normal
To: Jeonjaeng Chalgyr Jeonjaeng Thalia all
Originally sent by: Jeonjaeng
Originally sent to: Chalgyr Jeonjaeng Thalia all
Sent on Thu Apr  4 10:01:33 2013



What's that single, actionable thing you wanted from me? Because
your argument here is making no sense to me. You're okay with
the decision to change Armengar and the Gods? Because in your
last post you weren't.

What would have made it all better for you then? Having one
of my characters, Chalgyr or Devinoste, who have absolutely
not context or tie-in with these stories plopping into your
room on some evening for a bit to chat about the state of things in
those kingdoms?

I'm not sure what action you think I could have personally
performed that would have made these changes okay for you. There
were stories written, to lend context. But I'm confused by your
last response I guess, when measured against this one.

"I even agree with shrinking the religions" - your last reply

"People fought to save certain Gods and you ignored them" - your original note

Those two statements are in direct opposition of one another.

"don't care much about Armengar tanking." - your last note

"fought for a cure for Armengar and you ignored them" - your original note

There were three, maybe four people involved with this rp storyline
of trying to find a cure. But by not keeping it around, we were ignoring you?

Some stories were posted, RP came out of it, but what was the actionable
thing you wanted out of this? The only thing I heard from you
was to make someone like you or Harsha ruler, and to remove
rank requirements.

In your original note you made references to the old PVP battles
for IC reasons, and the wars. I agree, that was (mostly) fun (I have
to put in mostly because the 'behind the scenes stuff' players
did not deal with back then were the often nightly complaints, emails,
charges of 'harassment' from players for months on end against one
another. The problem is, there were a lot of ooc conflicts as well)
However, back then we had 50+ people on. I can't fabricate more players.
I wish I could. What I can do is try to understand what systems would
draw people in and keep them here. Understanding if maybe we are too
custom heavy, or if the newbie school does not help new players enough -
that sort of thing.

I can't control if a player here is going to complain to a new player
about customs being required or if so-and-such is a bad player and
should be avoided.

I guess what I want to know is what I started off with in this reply:

What is the single, actionable thing that you wish I had done that I
did not, that led you to your long note about leaving?

[Thalia]

[ 72] Jeonjaeng: Reply: Reply: Reply: Reply: Reply: reply:  Going Offline
Thu Apr  4 11:24:45 2013 Status: Normal
To: Chalgyr Jeonjaeng Chalgyr Jeonjaeng Thalia all
Originally sent by: Chalgyr
Originally sent to: Jeonjaeng Chalgyr Jeonjaeng Thalia all
Sent on Thu Apr  4 10:21:23 2013



Chal again it's not about the results of the storylines.
It's about the players having no influence or way to truely
interact with the storylines. I told you months before you
unveiled the new Armengar that I would love to make an NPC
just for the sake of RP'ing that storyline so that people
could get involved instead of just reading what happened.
As much as imms are present and chatting on OOC
It seems at least one of them mauy be willing to spend
some time as a random NPC to help promote RP.
It's not the storyline decisions that I dislike it's
the way they are given to us with no reall chance to RP it out.

[Thalia]

[ 73] Chalgyr: Reply: Reply: Reply: Reply: Reply: Reply: reply:  Going Offline
Thu Apr  4 12:15:27 2013 Status: Normal
To: Jeonjaeng Chalgyr Jeonjaeng Chalgyr Jeonjaeng Thalia all

So, we had a long chat on ooc about this. This is primarily what
I got from the conversation and the email exchange:

outgame <Jeonjaeng>: 'Chal this whole debate you are having could have simply be ended with
hey Jeon I know what you are talking about and we are working on something to help fix it

To everyone: Yes, I would like more players. more players create more RP
opportunities. If you have friends who would like to join us on here, I'd love
for them to come along and play. That being said, the debate was Jeon:

We are hoping to add some quests, some zones and fix some things here for customs/combat
the newbie school, etc. These mechanics help to hopefully retain players later.

The only solution to this lack of RP for Armengar I got from Jeon was to create
an NPC that would hand out a couple of quests. I'm not sure what value that
brings to RP that posting stories and redoing an area and adding code support for doesn't.

I'm still very open to more ideas, hopefully we've had some good conversations on the
forums lately - I know I had some good takeaways a few of us on the staff have
been discussing in our forums.

In the meantime, Jeon - obviously you'll come or go as you please, but before
putting a debate like this at my feet next time, I would ask that you try to think
of specific, actionable things we can do that you think will help a situation or problem.
Making blanket statements without anything to back them up does not help. Your comments
on both ooc and in the notes are often in conflict with one another. You're bored, fine -
that's unfortunate but it happens. But don't invite conversation or debate if you aren't
capable of having a civilized, logical discussion.

- Chal

[Thalia]

[ 74] Sye: reply to Armengar/RP issue (going to kill the string of long responses)
Thu Apr  4 16:33:25 2013 Status: Normal
To: all
I would like to take the time to point out a few things, that was ringing in my mind as I read through the responses back and forth.
I think one important role everyone is forgeting is the 10 keys of civility here.   

1. respect others
2. think positivly
3. pay attention
4. make a difference
5. Speak kindly (very important)
6. Say Thank you
7. Accept others (very important)
8. Rediscover Silence (taking a time out when you're frusterated and coming back)
9. Listen (very important and passive always happening, can be struggling even in chatting)
10. Keep your cool (very important in resovling issues and promoting a positive moral)

The reason I posted this is becuase I feel it is important to share with the whole Pbase, that I think we forget a lot of impact we have with each other and we put way too much 'blame' on someone else,  lets say a player we don't like, the staff, etc.


I really honestly love the active role Chalgyr and the whole staff and pbase has had in trying to look at changes for the present and future.


Not only did they put Armengar in a state to roleplay with for what two months? three months? 

There was backdrop, Kings, Queens, Leaders of all sects planning and plotting to end Armengar. (we blame Zircon really.. )   
But anyways, there were multiple chances for everyone to participate at any level.

I think every time, someone else that I have known and myself have asked someoen in the staff to pop on a noteable char to roleplay they took the time shortly after to sit and have a 15min-1hr Rp session.

*** have you sent a note asking the staff to log in and rp or whatever you wish to happen?  (you cannot expect someone to read your mind and then punish them or be upset because they did not know the expectations you require)

As a community we should take full responsibility for our own actions and how we treat each other. 

You talk about PVP, the last time I tried to encourage a PVP event, it helped players who had issues or problems already not play as much, and it is regretable, but that was their choice.

You can't blame others for your actions.   You can control how you react, and if you try for something hard enough the right way, you would be surprised how lenient the staff is.

Our number one problem isn't Content, Drops, fancy stuff we want to play with to make us powerful, Quests, making the game easier or harder.
*** Our number one problem is D ranked players (players who drag the whole community down, with how they treat each other.  I won't point out any names, but there are a handfull of players that swamp new players telling them about grudges they have and manipulate new playerbase
then go around blaming players they don't like when the new people leave.  (this crushes our ability to expand as a community and is a root cause we should really look into, IE looking at tell logs, mails, outgame records etc.)
Should we really be looking at how we affect the community and how we respect each other?  I believe so.  D ranked players should be coached up to C or B ranked players or be coached off the mud entirely.

D ranked players are players with poor attitudes and tax everyone else and spread negativity.

Jeon, I hope you don't react, and instead you ask yourself if you may be doing something incorrectly that could cause what results you didn't desire?  Did you communicate what you really want?  Did you do it respectfully?  Have you followed the 10 keys? 

Hope to see you around more often, and I would say to Everyone, what can each of us do to improve the game rather than blaming someone else?

thanks for your time,
Sye

[Daklore]

Is there a tl;dr for this?

I get it. Jeon is mad about Armengar and about RP declining. Rage-quitting doesn't solve the root of the problem. Players have to solve the problem of RP, not the staff. Yes, the staff needs to implement guidelines and stick to them, rather than, "okay, you're allowed to kinda do whatever as long as people don't complain." Yes, we should be allowed freedom, but there can also be guidelines people -have- to adhere too and get called out on; not by players, but by the staff.

As for combat. That is on the heads of the imms, and it's something we've been trying to have a discussion about for years. Well, some of us anyway. People like Sye think it's fine. Enthor and I, we can -both- agree it's not fine. We don't always agree on what is and isn't fine, but most of it, we can agree on it being broken. With all these recent questions on forums, it looks like someone up there is actually catching wind of what we've been saying for years.

Better sooner than later.

Daklore is still here, he'll still be here. And as a player, I understand the reduction of leadership roles, which has even cost me my kingdom. I didn't like it, but I understood it then, and I still understand it now. You have to understand that your roleplay isn't the centre of the universe. Believe it or not, it's revolving around what the staff want for the overall story of the game. Which, sometimes, comes at the cost of your personal RP. Kind of like real-life and change.

... Still, any chance of a tl;dr? Cause... that was too much bitter to read through.

[Chalgyr]

Thanks Dak - those were really many of the points I was trying to get across. I can't intiate all of the individual RP. A really good example that came out of that conversation on OOC was Jeon at one point said that a good RP story would have been to have Harsha, Lani and himself leading people out of Armengar to safety. And... I agreed. I even thought it would have made a good follow-up post. He felt that the story I had Leedon post precluded something like that from happening. I guess I don't see it that way - that people really do own their storylines.

As for the combat... yeah, working on that. Would be great if there was a solution though, because some people think it's fine, but even as you said, some don't, but even those who don't can't agree on what needs to change. That makes it a tricky affair from an admin standpoint - but we are trying and we are looking at some tweaks. Hopefully they'll help. If not, we'll try tuning some different dials and hopefully that'll help. Just because I'm not asking 'question of the day' anymore doesn't mean I am not checking this place daily hoping for more ideas and feedback, gang!

[Elendil]

Hmmmm,

It is safe to say that most of the people playing here do understand, and would even sympathise with the members of staff -  you lot are truly plowing a half-acre of Hell at times, Chal  .  That said, it is plain that no matter how long Jeon's driver has been here, in various incarnations, he didn't get it then, he doesn't get it now and he will NEVER get it.

Armengar needed to be shut down for perfectly valid and sensible reasons.  Yes, a few of us did rp out trying to find a cure for the plague, only to be doomed to failure.  That didn't bother me, nor Lani's driver and I would bet it is the same with a few of the others that participated.  But the only fly in the ointment was of course Jeon's driver.  In a word, it was a situation where he could have moved his char to another kingdom, or do what Dak's driver did and stay the course.  I think that would have made Jeon unique in it's own right ::shrugs::.  That and there is always the chance of re-opening once there is enough of a playerbase to justify re-opening any of the closed kingdoms.

To be sure, Jeon's series of diatribes served no other purpose than having Chal and Thalia to belabour themselves by explaining what should have been clear as crystal, and made the rest of us idly speculating about Jeon's driver's ego(and sanity).

[Tylon]

What is the single, actionable thing that you wish I had done that I
did not, that led you to your long note about leaving?

Bless his heart.

I very much agree with Elendil.

My own observation is that most creators would drop kick players out the door that post things like Jeon has. That Chalgyr/Thalia would be willing to try to sit down and try to figure out what they could have done differently to appease one player's angst speaks volumes of how much they care about this game and the player base. For that reason alone, I am honored to be here.

After thinking about it for awhile, I think its an unfair position placed at the feet of the creators here in terms of RP. They are supposed to create the game, run the game, encourage the RP but must look to the mortals for every decision they are to make? Does that sound like a sane position to take? Would you want to do that if you spent countless hours creating your vision?

slavery (n) - the subjection of a person to another person, esp in being forced into work

I am thankful that they care enough about this game to sink years into it and take a vested interest with its development and RP progression. The staff is entitled to having some form of input with that progression because they are the ones working towards it. From what I've seen here you would be hard pressed to find more top-down RP interaction in another MUD... the effort is here.

In closing, good luck with your endeavors chasing MUDs that cater to your whims. My only advice, should you encounter said unicorn, is to turn tail and run away from any developer that has no vision of their own.