N-wording the Mages just a little

[Daklore]

Okay, so I'm not calling for the total and complete OMGWTFPWNing of all casters, more as a way to make parts of the high-end (read: zones for level 200's) a bit more of a challenge for mages, and a bit more fair to melee players, like the Warrior tiers that can only get religion spells for attack damage (which you need for these higher level mobs, because you can hardly, if even, hit them).

So what's my idea then? We have the no_arcane and no_scout flags in the game already... and no_priest ... or whatever the anti-scout/priest cast flags are called.... so how about a half_arcane and half_scout(or whatever) flag for OLC? They'd do exactly as they say, halve the damage of attack spells cast by mages or scouts. This would be effective at raising the difficulty level for mages, while keeping it relatively the same for melee combatants, and allow the levels of some mobs to be lowered to a more... reasonable level (or for a possible re-working of the combat code to eliminate the inability to hit mobs 40 or 50 levels higher than you).

While I'm at it, how about a no_brand flag for mobs, more specifically, legendaries? All it'd do is prevent brands, opens, and marks from affecting target mob, allowing for Legendaries to be tougher all around to kill. Coupled with a half_arcane, mages would -still- be able to pull off a higher DPS than an Elitist, but a Templar or Assassin might stand a better chance of going toe to toe in melee, because the total level could be lowered to a melee hitable range. Why should we need a mage or scout to pwn the GMA, or any future legendaries? Why can't melee fighters do it in melee? ... Yeah, I know you casters are going to come down and smite me, but, meh, someone had to say it, and I at least put in some logical conclusions... or something.

Imma shut up now.

[Lx6]

I in some odd ball way... support this very much.

D: I can't even scratch the GMA without Divine Strike. what's the point of being a killing machine when Mages kill it for me?

[Chalgyr]

I kinda liked the half-damage notions.

[Daklore]

But not the no_brand flag? Pffffffffffffft.

[Alaunae]

Since no one has bothered to come here to stick up for the casters yet --

I'll start by saying that I agree with Daklore on one point: it'd be nice to see melee-intensive classes be able to have a chance to hit the highest level mobs in the game.  Granted, I still wonder sometimes why we have level 250+ mobs aside from the legendary mobs (aside from the obvious -- more experience gained), but I suppose that's another question for another time.

However, I'm going to have to disagree with the remainder of the argument -- and the incessant complaining that seems to be done constantly about mages having too much of advatage in this game.  I'll try not to turn Daklore's post into a forum for my own rants.

As it stands, with 90% of the mobs in this game, it's the melee classes that have the advantage, not the mages.  I've seen time and time again where a melee character who has taken the time to gather decent gear for themselves can one-shot even the level 190-200 mobs in this game, while the mages are casting for multiple rounds at a time to down the same mob with the same damtype.  Daklore, you yourself brag about how it only takes you four weapon hits to down a young assassin in Tower Fortress, and you're a priest.  If I get onto most of my mages -- including Narise, who as a Chronomancer has speedcast -- I'm lucky to get that same mob down in one round.  Most of the time, it's two or sometimes even three rounds if a brand goes awry.

Beyond that, melee classes (and I'll include priests and scouts in this, despite the fact that both can be a bit cast-heavy depending on the class) have quite a few advantages over mages that no one seems to consider.  For example:

• HP differential -- customs and gear aside, melee classes get more hitpoints when all things (re: constitution points) are equal.  This is a huge, huge advantage when the fights in this game can be decided by a few hitpoints at the most.


• Melee classes -- actually, I daresay ALL classes -- do not need to fill their rune spaces with runes in order to be functional and above average.  If a mage doesn't want to have a spell doing minimal damage, they need an arcanina and sometimes two to boost that particular spell.  To cover multiple spells, those runes add up.  And, with the rarity of some of those runes, trying to rune a mage to be effective is a laborious process even moreso than the questing that people seem to complain about constantly.


• Ability to multitask (for lack of a better word) -- with the exception of the warrior side of fighters, since they are a pure melee class, every other class has an able mixture of melee skills and spell skills to help them in their hunting.  Most mages (aside from shapeshifters and evokers who have spells to give them an extra attack) get two weapon hits, maximum, and in turn have to rely on their spell damage to get them through a fight.  Priests?  Usually have at least one spell or skill to back them up.  Scouts?  Too many spells to back up their melee.  Rogues?  Same as priests, and the lower tier of fighter has so many options at their disposal it's ridiculous.

'But mages have gate, which is the ultimate advantage" some may argue.  Yes, we do, and mages need it moreso than any other class!  We automatically start off as the weakest class in the game.  We gain the least HP, we have the least chance of defending ourselves against mob attacks, and at the very beginning, we have one attack, maybe two to defend ourselves with.  The number of attacks will barely budge (except in the cases noted above), we do not get any defensive skills like shield blocking or parry, and for the most part our armour boosting spells are quite miniscule, even with our Imbuing runes.  The expression glass cannon is extremely appropriate in describing this class because while we pack a punch, unless you've taken the thousands upon thousands of hours to gear yourself up appropriately, we can't take a punch to save our lives.  Literally.

And, that's what this comes down to.  A mage is meant to be a damage-dealing class, plain and simple.  We're not going to get many weapon attacks, we have no chance on defense without the proper gear, and then to suggest that we suffer more penalties in levelling is ridiculous.  Just because most of the powerful mages have spent thousands of hours in this game to make sure that they can hold their own against what they're fighting (re: Tsythor - 4071 hours; Shaia - 3896 hours, Cari - 3827 hours, Alaunae - 3708 hours, and so on and so on) doesn't meant that mages need to be whittled away at until they're a shell of what they're meant to be.

[azzan]

Extremely well put.

[Chalgyr]

I still like the magic 1/2 rooms.

But then, I already have a 'type' of setting for zones that screws with melee class in place, so to the OLC side of things, it's balanced.

I do however, agree with just about everything said by Alau in this.  I do think that melee has the hardest time with say, GMA.  And that is currently the standard, other than pk, that everyone judges by.  However, I'd like to point out that he's a melee type himself.  He's meant to be physically very hard to hit.  I've started mapping up a new area that may have a legendary/GMA type of reward in it.  The final charcter or characters will probably be geared more toward magic use, which means melee should hit them much harder, and they'll cast magic to burn people down quicker.  In a contest of hps, who outlasts who?

Whether or not I'll ever find the time to get around to building this is an entirely different matter, but the point I'm making is that the GMA upon being built was meant to be a melee style character, which makes him hard for physical hits.  I've also had certain unnamed idiots run around bragging they can/have been able to in the past kill the GMA naked using a single skill over and over again.  This is the same person who claims their class is too weak.  Just to put things into perspective when I hear one player claim that a class is too strong or too weak, why I approach the matter with a degree of skepticism...

[Daklore]

In response to Ala: I merely meant to make the flag for Legendary and 'boss' type mobs in the game. Not to throw around a zone just because a builder hates mages.

In response to Fuzzbutt: The GMA may be intended to be a melee style mob, but he's a -cardinal-. Cardinals aren't a very melee oriented class. They are, for lack of better terms, a support class. His level is just to insane to hit in melee.... okay, very -often-. I've seen Kraca hit him once out of a bajillion rounds of combat.

But still, you have to admit that having mages that can solo the GMA, while most Priests and most Fighters can't even scratch him? I disclude rogues, because most, if not all, get circle, which can hit the bugger. Hell, my pummel can't even hit him.

So yeah, legendary == power vacuum. Hence... it'd be nice if Mages -had- to bring some help, not bring someone because they're generous or want too. Seriously, Ala could just kill him alone, and none of us would be the wiser. *shrug*

As for a legendary, I'm in the process of building a zone that fuzzbutt might approve a legendary in... maybe >P

Phase 1: 100/814 (mapping it out in-game first, then adding descs, mobs, objects, and mprogs) *shifty eyes*

Beware!

I still like the no_brand flag! >.>

PS: As for the four hitting young assassins? I need to use a brand to do it.... and another little secret I shan't reveal, cause i'm eeeeebil.

[Magus_Sairos]

It's funny, because I agree with what both Alaunae -and- Daklore said.  Ala is right, Mages are damage dealing classes, and they can deal a fuck-ton of damage in a short amount of time..  But if a strong wind picks up, they're proper fucked.  On Daklore's side, yeah I wish Melee classes would be able to do more, but I was basing all of that on the fact that I -RARELY- hit the GMA.  Yes, I've hit him.  To date I think I've hit him.. six times, no lie.  But anyways, when Chalgyr and Daklore dropped the subtle hint that more legendaries were on the way, some that I could -hit-, then I was alright.

[Zelos]

I'll agree with daklore and magus, making it more possible for the gma to be hit by melee attacks is a good thing, the half_arcane room for legendaries would be sufficient enough to do this in my opinion thus allowing the GMA's lvl to be lowered so that melee characters can hit him more effectively and efficiently. but thats my two cents and well... two cents ain't worth shit anymore so take it as it is.